Alcohol Stoves

In a message dated 8/12/04 6:01:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
sespring-/***@public.gmane.org writes:

Can anyone tell me the difference between denatured alcohol and the
rubbing alcohol sold in drug stores? Can rubbing alcohol be used in
an alcohol stove, and if not why not?

Hi Steve

Rubbing or isopropyl alcohol is I believe 30% water and burns very dirty
causing a lot of soot and is not very efficient, but will work.

Denatured alcohol sold in paint and hardware stores or "HEET" in the yellow
bottle, the red bottle is isopropyl, works quit well too. HEET is a gasoline
anti freeze and can be found in automotive stores, Sav-on Drugs here in So.
Cal, Walmart carries it too.

Regards, Jim

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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zippydooda

2004-08-12 14:44:16 UTC

Denatured alcohol is a mix of ethanol and methanol, with little or no
water in it. Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol and water. The
rubbing alcohol, if you get it to burn (depending on temperature),
will not make as much heat and usually leaves soot. At least that is
what I have heard...

Bill in Houston

p.s. if availability is what you are concerned about, the heet or
other winter gas additive at the autoparts store is usually denatured
alcohol. i guess they sell it at grocery stores up north, too. not
sure, since we have no idea what we would use it for down here...

Post by sespring
Can anyone tell me the difference between denatured alcohol and the
rubbing alcohol sold in drug stores? Can rubbing alcohol be used in
an alcohol stove, and if not why not?
Thanks,
Steve

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SF Nazdarovye

2004-08-12 17:10:36 UTC

Post by zippydooda
p.s. if availability is what you are concerned about, the heet or
other winter gas additive at the autoparts store is usually denatured
alcohol. i guess they sell it at grocery stores up north, too. not
sure, since we have no idea what we would use it for down here...

Actually, HEET in the yellow bottle is pure methanol (wood alcohol).

It burns well, but isn't particularly good for you if you get it on
your skin or inhale it.

Denatured alcohol is usually primarily ethanol (grain alcohol) that's
had methanol and other things added to "denature" it and make it
undrinkable. The recipes vary, and some brands have things in them that
create sooty smoke and nasty fumes.

Isopropanol (alcohol synthesized from byproducts of petroleum refining)
usually is cut with water, and cut or not, doesn't burn as efficiently.

Pure ethanol is the cleanest-burning and has the most energy per ounce
of these alcohols, but it's also really expensive and not available to
the public in most states.

Bottom line: yellow HEET is probably the most convenient good-burning
fuel for alcohol stoves.

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zippydooda

2004-08-12 19:00:11 UTC

Isn't there a "red bottle" heet that is mostly ethanol? Help me out,
SF...

Post by zippydooda
p.s. if availability is what you are concerned about, the heet or
other winter gas additive at the autoparts store is usually

denatured

Post by zippydooda
alcohol. i guess they sell it at grocery stores up north, too.

not

Post by zippydooda
sure, since we have no idea what we would use it for down here...

that's

Post by SF Nazdarovye
had methanol and other things added to "denature" it and make it
undrinkable. The recipes vary, and some brands have things in them that
create sooty smoke and nasty fumes.
Isopropanol (alcohol synthesized from byproducts of petroleum

refining)

Post by SF Nazdarovye
usually is cut with water, and cut or not, doesn't burn as

efficiently.

Post by SF Nazdarovye
Pure ethanol is the cleanest-burning and has the most energy per ounce
of these alcohols, but it's also really expensive and not available to
the public in most states.
Bottom line: yellow HEET is probably the most convenient good-

burning

Post by SF Nazdarovye
fuel for alcohol stoves.

Chris

2004-08-13 03:43:36 UTC

Where does "Metholated Spirits" come in the summary of the state of
affairs? (Not being an American, we don't have this "HEET" stuff, nor
does anyone I've talked to know what "denatured alcohol" is.

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photonstove

2004-08-13 18:04:44 UTC

Post by Chris
Where does "Metholated Spirits" come in the summary of the state of
affairs? (Not being an American, we don't have this "HEET" stuff, nor
does anyone I've talked to know what "denatured alcohol" is.

My understanding is that Metholated Spirits is like Denatured
Alcohol. Should be the best fuel for backpacking and marine alcohol
stoves.

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Mark

2004-08-14 11:44:00 UTC

You forgot that wonderfully handy backpackers product, EVERCLEAR!

It's a fuel for your stove, a disinfectant for cuts and abrasions, a
passible paint thinner when required, and oh yeah, you can use it in
the ratio two teaspoons = 1 shot in you backcountry beverage bar.

And if you don't happen to bring the stove, take a couple of shots
of this stuff ... you won't care much if your eating your enertia
trail foods dry and out of the bag!

Post by SF Nazdarovye
Bottom line: yellow HEET is probably the most convenient good-

burning

Post by SF Nazdarovye
fuel for alcohol stoves.

Don Ladigin

2004-08-14 17:21:30 UTC

Post by Mark
You forgot that wonderfully handy backpackers product, EVERCLEAR!

I agree with Mark, Everclear, Annie Green Springs, or any of the other
nearly 200 proof drinking alcohols are great for use in alcohol
stoves. If you don't mind their expense here in the USA, they are
superb. If you spill a little on your fingers it doesn't make
everything you touch after that taste horrible, and there are no
denaturing chemicals added which can be absorbed by the skin.

The reason dentatured alcohol is "denatured" (has other products put
into it which are unwise to drink) is so the "sin" tax can be charged
to the drinkable alcohol. Users in other countries which don't have
this tax added to their drinkable alcohol may be able to use this
same alcohol with much more benefit financially.
Best, Don L.

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Bill Fornshell

2004-08-12 17:58:03 UTC

Hi Bill in Houston, I am Bill in San Antonio,TX. I
guess you have never walked through a Wal Mart auto
dept. Wal Mart here sells a ton of Heet. Heet is
used to help burn water out of your gas. If you can't
find it at a WalMart in Houston take a ride to San
Antonio.

--- zippydooda <zippydooda-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

Bill in Houston

Post by zippydooda
p.s. if availability is what you are concerned

about, the heet or other winter gas additive at the
autoparts store is usually denatured alcohol. i guess
they sell it at grocery stores up
north, too. not sure, since we have no idea what we
would use it for down here...

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zippydooda

2004-08-12 18:56:26 UTC

I have heard of WalMarts. They say we might be getting one.

Bill in Houston

Post by Bill Fornshell
Hi Bill in Houston, I am Bill in San Antonio,TX. I
guess you have never walked through a Wal Mart auto
dept. Wal Mart here sells a ton of Heet. Heet is
used to help burn water out of your gas. If you can't
find it at a WalMart in Houston take a ride to San
Antonio.
Bill in Houston

Post by zippydooda
p.s. if availability is what you are concerned

sweugene

2004-08-12 19:59:26 UTC

I bought some Drygas at Kmart. It's methanol, but I'm not sure of the
percentage. I burned it in a tuna can and it seemed to burn well with
no soot.

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SF Nazdarovye

2004-08-12 20:02:58 UTC

I believe the "Red HEET" is Isopropanol...

Isn't there a "red bottle" heet that is mostly ethanol? Help me out,
SF...

frankptrsn

2004-08-29 06:39:59 UTC

Denatured alcohol is ethanol =grain alcohol that you can drink= with
some toxic chemicals in it so that you can't drink it. This is used
to thin paint.

Rubbing alcohol is Isopropyl and 30% water. Isopropyl doesn't burn
completely and leaves soot on your pot, plus the water content
doesn't help much.

The Zen Stove site talks a little about the differnt fuels-
http://home.comcast.net/~agmann/stove/Stoves.htm

It mentions that rubbing alcohol is cheaper but you will need larger
jets on your stove for it to work and it won't completely burn.

Aaron

2004-08-30 17:57:20 UTC

It's possible to get a pure form of the alcohol used in rubbing
alcohol in the form of HEET engine de-icer (RED bottle). The yellow
bottle version is pure methanol (excellent), but the red bottle is
pure isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) with no water in it. I have
experimented extensively with this fuel and have tried to get around
its detractions because it has a significantly higher BTU value than
any other alcohol (ie more burn for weight). Because Isopropyl
alcohol has carbon as part of its molecular structure, it naturally
leaves a lot of soot on the pot and stove. There's no getting around
that. It also stinks when it burns. Otherwise, it burns hotter and
boils faster than other alcohols. I don't recommend the stuff because
of the soot and it is a trade off, but it does work especially in a
stove design that doesn't have jets to clog, like a CAT stove or
Brasslite Turbo stove.
Aaron
Brasslite, LLC
www.brasslite.com

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Ryan Jordan

2004-08-30 18:06:46 UTC

Aaron: thanks for the tip on the isopropanol. Do you have a feel for the differences in boil times and/or fuel efficiency with a Turbo?
Ryan

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-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron <aaron-***@public.gmane.org>
To: BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org <BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Mon Aug 30 13:57:20 2004
Subject: [BackpackingLight] Re: Alcohol Stoves

It's possible to get a pure form of the alcohol used in rubbing
alcohol in the form of HEET engine de-icer (RED bottle). The yellow
bottle version is pure methanol (excellent), but the red bottle is
pure isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) with no water in it. I have
experimented extensively with this fuel and have tried to get around
its detractions because it has a significantly higher BTU value than
any other alcohol (ie more burn for weight). Because Isopropyl
alcohol has carbon as part of its molecular structure, it naturally
leaves a lot of soot on the pot and stove. There's no getting around
that. It also stinks when it burns. Otherwise, it burns hotter and
boils faster than other alcohols. I don't recommend the stuff because
of the soot and it is a trade off, but it does work especially in a
stove design that doesn't have jets to clog, like a CAT stove or
Brasslite Turbo stove.
Aaron
Brasslite, LLC
www.brasslite.com

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Tracy

2004-08-30 21:25:53 UTC

Post by Ryan Jordan
Aaron: thanks for the tip on the isopropanol. Do you have a feel for

the differences in boil times and/or fuel efficiency with a Turbo?

Post by Ryan Jordan
Ryan

Speaking of alcohol stoves...

I just stumbled across this variation on the famous cat stove:

http://www.users.fast.net/~k3ct/sealedcatstove.htm

...tts

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Aaron

2004-08-31 03:21:05 UTC

The boil time seems to be reduced to about 4:15 but I haven't done
exact time comparisons in a series. I've gotten 16 oz to boil with
as little as 12 ml with the stuff. The flame is a bit on the high
side and this reduces the efficiency somewhat. But I also want to
say that overall I don't think it's worth it because of the mess and
that's why I don't recommend it to my customers.
Aaron
www.brasslite.com

Post by Ryan Jordan
Aaron: thanks for the tip on the isopropanol. Do you have a feel

for the differences in boil times and/or fuel efficiency with a
Turbo?

Post by Ryan Jordan
Ryan
--------------------------
Wireless messaging solutions for mobile
adventurers, by Beartooth Media Ventures.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Mon Aug 30 13:57:20 2004
Subject: [BackpackingLight] Re: Alcohol Stoves
It's possible to get a pure form of the alcohol used in rubbing
alcohol in the form of HEET engine de-icer (RED bottle). The

yellow

Post by Ryan Jordan
bottle version is pure methanol (excellent), but the red bottle is
pure isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) with no water in it. I have
experimented extensively with this fuel and have tried to get

around

Post by Ryan Jordan
its detractions because it has a significantly higher BTU value than
any other alcohol (ie more burn for weight). Because Isopropyl
alcohol has carbon as part of its molecular structure, it

naturally

Post by Ryan Jordan
leaves a lot of soot on the pot and stove. There's no getting

around

Post by Ryan Jordan
that. It also stinks when it burns. Otherwise, it burns hotter and
boils faster than other alcohols. I don't recommend the stuff

because

Post by Ryan Jordan
of the soot and it is a trade off, but it does work especially in a
stove design that doesn't have jets to clog, like a CAT stove or
Brasslite Turbo stove.
Aaron
Brasslite, LLC
www.brasslite.com

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Matthew Takeda

2004-08-31 08:06:57 UTC

... Because Isopropyl
alcohol has carbon as part of its molecular structure, it naturally
leaves a lot of soot on the pot and stove.

Sorry, Aaron. I bow to your expertise in stove design, but you don't know
your chemistry. All of the alcohols we use as fuels have a carbon backbone,
not just isopropanol.

Matthew Takeda
the JOAT

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Aaron

2004-09-01 00:38:37 UTC

I had only one semester of chemistry in college and I agree that I
don't know chemistry very well at all. If I'm misinformed, then
please explain why isopropyl alcohol leaves so much more soot than
any other. I would be interested to know what the actual mechanism
is that causes the phenomena, if you can explain it.

Aaron

... Because Isopropyl
alcohol has carbon as part of its molecular structure, it

naturally

leaves a lot of soot on the pot and stove.

Sorry, Aaron. I bow to your expertise in stove design, but you

don't know

Post by Matthew Takeda
your chemistry. All of the alcohols we use as fuels have a carbon backbone,
not just isopropanol.
Matthew Takeda
the JOAT

Patrick Sarnacke

2004-09-01 03:58:48 UTC

Post by Aaron
I would be interested to know what the actual mechanism
is that causes the phenomena, if you can explain it.
Aaron

It's been years for me, but I'll see what I remember:

Isopropyl alcohol has one more carbon atom than ethanol and two more
than methanol. (The prefix meth- always indicates one carbon atom,
eth- indicates two, prop- indicates three, and but- indicates four.)
The formulas for the common alcohols are:

Methanol:
CH3(OH)

Ethanol:
CH3-CH2(OH)

Isopropyl:
CH3-CH(OH)-CH3 or (and this might come out all wrong based on how
the fonts work out)

H
|
H O H
| | |
H-C-C-C-H
| | |
H H H

Ok, so structure (and number of carbon atoms) out of the way,
combustion is the separation of these compounds into CO2 and H2O, and
in complete combustion, nothing else. Once the combustion heat has
broken the chemical bonds in the organic molecules the individual
atoms combine with oxygen (which is why combustion is also called
"rapid oxidation"). Soot, on the other hand, is pure C, and is a
product of incomplete combustion (along with carbon monoxide (CO), and
certainly minor amounts of other organic compounds).

So why would Isopropyl produce more soot? My guess would be that the
higher number of carbon atoms means that more oxygen would be needed
for complete combustion, and not enough oxygen is being provided.
Because there are fewer carbon atoms in methanol and ethanol, there's
a much greater chance of a proper fuel mixture, and therefore complete
combustion.

Your reaction for isopropanol might look like this:
2(CH3-CH(OH)-CH3) + 9(O2) = 6(CO2) + 8(H2O)
Ethanol would look like this:
2(CH3-CH2(OH)) + 6(O2) = 4(CO2) + 6(H2O)

So you need less O2 to burn ethanol.

Additionally, it's entirely possible that the ethanol and methanol
you're burning have far fewer impurities than the isopropanol, and
it's the impurities that are throwing off the combustion balances.

Of course, it's been 9 years since I've had to do any chemistry at
all, so my explanation could be bunk. IANAC (I Am Not A Chemist).

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Ralph Oborn

2004-09-01 04:50:32 UTC

IANAC but I took enough classes to be one on the way to Physics.
Your explanations are right on. It is usually the impurities that
are biting you. Rubbing alcohol has lots of water in it, keeping the
combustion temp down and incomplete, hence the soot (unburned
carbon) if you have "pure" methanol, ethanol, proponal (Iso means it
is branched) and "good mixing with air then there will be no soot
(complete combustion). If there is soot it is caused by either.
1) impurities (don't be so cheap, get the good stuff)
2) water cooling your combustion (again don't be so cheap)
3) Putting you pot in the combustion zone (flame)where there is
still unburned carbon (move your pot higher)
4) inefficient mixing of air in the combustion zone. (try different
hole (jet) designs, smaller holes, staggered hole patterns, angles,
spirals to encourage air mixing and better combustion

Ralph (hey some of those classes are actually useful)

Post by Patrick Sarnacke

Post by Aaron
I would be interested to know what the actual mechanism
is that causes the phenomena, if you can explain it.
Aaron

Isopropyl alcohol has one more carbon atom than ethanol and two more
than methanol. (The prefix meth- always indicates one carbon atom,
eth- indicates two, prop- indicates three, and but- indicates

four.)

Post by Patrick Sarnacke
CH3(OH)
CH3-CH2(OH)
CH3-CH(OH)-CH3 or (and this might come out all wrong based on how
the fonts work out)
H
|
H O H
| | |
H-C-C-C-H
| | |
H H H
Ok, so structure (and number of carbon atoms) out of the way,
combustion is the separation of these compounds into CO2 and H2O, and
in complete combustion, nothing else. Once the combustion heat has
broken the chemical bonds in the organic molecules the individual
atoms combine with oxygen (which is why combustion is also called
"rapid oxidation"). Soot, on the other hand, is pure C, and is a
product of incomplete combustion (along with carbon monoxide (CO), and
certainly minor amounts of other organic compounds).
So why would Isopropyl produce more soot? My guess would be that the
higher number of carbon atoms means that more oxygen would be

needed

Post by Patrick Sarnacke
for complete combustion, and not enough oxygen is being provided.
Because there are fewer carbon atoms in methanol and ethanol,

there's

Post by Patrick Sarnacke
a much greater chance of a proper fuel mixture, and therefore

complete

Post by Patrick Sarnacke
combustion.
2(CH3-CH(OH)-CH3) + 9(O2) = 6(CO2) + 8(H2O)
2(CH3-CH2(OH)) + 6(O2) = 4(CO2) + 6(H2O)
So you need less O2 to burn ethanol.
Additionally, it's entirely possible that the ethanol and methanol
you're burning have far fewer impurities than the isopropanol, and
it's the impurities that are throwing off the combustion balances.
Of course, it's been 9 years since I've had to do any chemistry at
all, so my explanation could be bunk. IANAC (I Am Not A Chemist).

Redlin Mark

2004-09-01 04:39:28 UTC

Hi,
Isopropyl alchol does have one more carbon than
ethonal and two more than methanol. The initial
energy to start the combustion reaction starts from
the breaking of the C-OH bond. Once started the heat
consumes the remaining carbon generating CO2 and H20.
This is why isopropyl has more energy per unit than
ethonal and methonal (more carbon). The problem is
that I suspect that the 70% isopropyl is not pure
enough to sustain the combustion reaction. Any
incomplete combustion results in soot, and soot is a
common product from any incomplete combustion
generally due to water taking energy from the system
by evaporation. Just think of wet versus dry wood, it
takes energy to remove enough water to allow wood to
combust more completely (with less smoke and soot).
I hope a chemist out there can provide a more complete
description of the process.
Mark Redlin

Post by Aaron
I had only one semester of chemistry in college and
I agree that I
don't know chemistry very well at all. If I'm
misinformed, then
please explain why isopropyl alcohol leaves so much
more soot than
any other. I would be interested to know what the
actual mechanism
is that causes the phenomena, if you can explain it.
Aaron

... Because Isopropyl
alcohol has carbon as part of its molecular

structure, it
naturally

leaves a lot of soot on the pot and stove.

Sorry, Aaron. I bow to your expertise in stove

design, but you
don't know

Post by Matthew Takeda
your chemistry. All of the alcohols we use as

fuels have a carbon
backbone,

Post by Matthew Takeda
not just isopropanol.
Matthew Takeda
the JOAT

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Bill Fornshell

2004-09-01 04:58:39 UTC

In the world of the Potter what you are talking about
we would call having an Oxidation Atmosphere or a
Reduction Atmosphere in our kiln. You need a way to
force more air into your stove. Try a small computer
fan and see if that helps. .
Bill in Texas

Post by Redlin Mark
Hi,
Isopropyl alchol does have one more carbon than
ethonal and two more than methanol. The initial
energy to start the combustion reaction starts from
the breaking of the C-OH bond. Once started the
heat
consumes the remaining carbon generating CO2 and
H20.
This is why isopropyl has more energy per unit than
ethonal and methonal (more carbon). The problem is
that I suspect that the 70% isopropyl is not pure
enough to sustain the combustion reaction. Any
incomplete combustion results in soot, and soot is a
common product from any incomplete combustion
generally due to water taking energy from the system
by evaporation. Just think of wet versus dry wood,
it
takes energy to remove enough water to allow wood to
combust more completely (with less smoke and soot).
I hope a chemist out there can provide a more
complete
description of the process.
Mark Redlin

Post by Aaron
I had only one semester of chemistry in college

and

Post by Aaron
I agree that I
don't know chemistry very well at all. If I'm
misinformed, then
please explain why isopropyl alcohol leaves so

much

Post by Aaron
more soot than
any other. I would be interested to know what the
actual mechanism
is that causes the phenomena, if you can explain

it.> > Aaron

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backpack45scb

2004-08-31 18:25:06 UTC

We did from Sonora Pass to Donner Summit at highway 80 a couple of
weeks ago. I suspect that priority mail sent today to Echo Lake P.O.
would get there by Saturday, but timing is close. If you do, delivery
confirmation says received at a different post office, but don't
worry, it really got to echo lake, which is a small P.O. inside the
store. They got my package out for me even though post office was not
officially open (hours are 11-2). If you are going to just buy
provisions there, I suggest you call them and ask what they have. I
know they have jerky as mine in the resupply box was moldy so had to
buy some more. Number is on their web site www.echochalet.com

On the route - spectacular, but pay attention to the water. Things are
a little dry. Fill up at Lily Pad lake - that's the last water until
Lost Lakes. At Lost Lakes trail takes you to northern lake. If you are
going to camp there, take the effort to hike over to the southern lake
(maybe 1/2 mile). Northern on is RV and ORV area, packed hard, toilet
tissue 2 feet from lake, brass from rifles all around, etc.

Trail from Showers Lake to Echo Lake tougher than it appeared from pct
guidebook. Strawberry shake at echo lake resort great. We stayed at
Berkeley Kids Camp at Echo Lake - showers, good meals, mattress for 2
$60. When trail hits road at echo lake resort parking lot, turn right,
walk 1/4 mile, Berkeley kids camp is big lodge type building on right.
People at echo lake store will call them, or call a couple of motels
which will pick you up.

Going north we camped at Susie Lake, nice, don't believe guidebook.
From Susie Lake you go up Dicks Pass - there is a good stream maybe a
mile before you hit the pass that the guidebook doesn't mention - just
above an area with short switchbacks - little boardwalk over the
stream area.

We stayed at middle Velma lake. Next day, Phipps Creek was dry - no
water till Richardson Lake. Did a dry camp at Painted Rock Trail
junction, filled water about 1/2 mile before Tinker Knob, and that was
last water till old highway 40.

Ralph Alcorn
www.backpack45.com
Shepherd Canyon books, Publisher of We're in the Mountains, Not Over
the Hill: Tales and Tips from Seasoned Women Backpackers

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Matthew Takeda

2004-09-01 10:51:33 UTC