Discussion:
Sticky Fly Anyone?
Ron Rogers
2008-03-30 15:41:45 UTC
Permalink
The other weekend, I used my 3 year old MSR Hubba Hubba tent for the
first time in 6-9 months. It had been kept neatly folded and rolled
in its stuff sack, stored in my house in a room that gets rather warm
in the summer. When I opened up the fly to set the tent up, I
discovered that the coated side was fairly sticky, such that the
folded together, coated side was sticking to itself and had to be
actively pulled apart.

The fly is made of "30D ripstop nylon, 1500 mm PU/silicone coating".

Is this a normal occurrence with this type of material? Is it
silnylon? Does the stickiness indicate a degradation which will
eventually result in water-proofing failure in the field, or should I
not worry about it?

Before I contact MSR I wanted to get some practical insight and advice.

Thanks. Ron
Don Ladigin
2008-03-30 17:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron Rogers
The other weekend, I used my 3 year old MSR Hubba Hubba tent for the
first time in 6-9 months.
********************
Nice tent!
********************
Post by Ron Rogers
It had been kept neatly folded and rolled
in its stuff sack, stored in my house in a room that gets rather warm
in the summer. When I opened up the fly to set the tent up, I
discovered that the coated side was fairly sticky, such that the
folded together, coated side was sticking to itself and had to be
actively pulled apart.
The fly is made of "30D ripstop nylon, 1500 mm PU/silicone coating".
Is this a normal occurrence with this type of material?
******************
No. The tent probably was a little damp when it was put away. I set
my tent(s) up in the attic for a few days and let them dry out
thoroughly before rolling and storing them. I know not everyone has
room to do this!
*********************
Post by Ron Rogers
Is it
silnylon?
*******************

The silicone coating suggests it is. MSR could tell you for sure.
**********************
Post by Ron Rogers
Does the stickiness indicate a degradation which will
eventually result in water-proofing failure in the field, or should
I not worry about it?
****************
I wouldn't keep doing this, the temporary stickiness doesn't sound
like it's good for your tent, but it's probably O.K. if no part of
the waterproofing coat has obviously transferred from one place to
another. Don't be shy about contacting MSR and learning what they
have to say about it.
Best, Don L.
James D. Marco
2008-03-31 13:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ron,
A couple of my tarps do this. Yes, they
are Silicon coated. And, the tent fly will, also.
Morning routine is to roll it up after
shaking it out. Some moisture and dirt stays
on the tarp. After hiking all day, especially
in the sun, it often sticks together in odd
ways. And, yes, there is some degradation of
the material and coating.
Water (just plain old rainwater) will
dissolve anything to some degree. It will also
de solve into anything, though hard metals and
other things only allow water to dissolve a
molecule or two into a wet surface. Any way,
plastics, especially nylon, will absorb some
of the water...much more than you would think.
Eventually, the water WILL destroy any film
or coating on your tent. This will happen
no matter what. If it gets wet, it will degrade
over time. But, this process is minor...I
anticipate my tarp outliving me. With some
reasonable care, as Don describes.
Of a greater importance is the exposure
to high energy radiation. Mostly, this is
referred to as UV protection by the
manufacturers. This usually causes plastics,
and nylon, to break their long molecular
chains, weakening the fabric.
I expect any SilNylon to degrade. So, I
try to put it away, properly. Sometimes, I do
not, though. Knowing I will be out the
following weekend after this weekend's trip, I
do not try for well dried. If it is pretty dry
in the morning, I just pack it up and leave it.
If I anticipate changing tarps, for example from
a UL canoe trip to a road camping trip for some
base camp style hikes, I will set it up at home,
or hang it out over the cloths line to dry for
a few hours.
Generally, our cloths line is not in
direct sunlight. Setting it up in the back yard
and letting it sit in the sun for a few days,
does more damage(through UV degradation) than
good (by drying the tarp out!) Generally, I
would suggest that you will get about 400-500
days of direct sunlight before the fabric fails.
Or, anywhere from a year to 2 years of
continuous use. At my rate of usage, call it 1
month per year, I should get between 12 and 24
years out of them, though.
As Don suggests, drying the tent, out of
direct sunlight will maximize your usability.
Many of the coatings can be rebuilt by using
a silicone spray on occasion. Even though the
coating degrades, it can be added back.
Many tents use polyurethane coatings.
Poly will absorb more water than nylon. Often
what feels dry is actually still "damp." This
can cause the poly to stick to itself, too.
It will cause the fabric to stick to itself
by softening the material.
And general degradation by bacterial
action can be bad, as you no doubt know. The
water and dust on a tent will provide an
good growth medium for bacteria. These can
release various enzymes/acids that will cause
degradation of a tent fly...even if the
bacteria do not actively "eat" the material.
Generally, water is needed, soo keeping your
tent dry is the primary concern. The next
most important is out of direct sunlight
(though this will kill bacteria.) A good
way to do this is to repack your tent at
intervals...say a month or so.
My thoughts only . . .
jdm
Post by Don Ladigin
Post by Ron Rogers
The other weekend, I used my 3 year old MSR Hubba Hubba tent for the
first time in 6-9 months.
********************
Nice tent!
********************
Post by Ron Rogers
It had been kept neatly folded and rolled
in its stuff sack, stored in my house in a room that gets rather
warm
Post by Ron Rogers
in the summer. When I opened up the fly to set the tent up, I
discovered that the coated side was fairly sticky, such that the
folded together, coated side was sticking to itself and had to be
actively pulled apart.
The fly is made of "30D ripstop nylon, 1500 mm PU/silicone coating".
Is this a normal occurrence with this type of material?
******************
No. The tent probably was a little damp when it was put away. I set
my tent(s) up in the attic for a few days and let them dry out
thoroughly before rolling and storing them. I know not everyone has
room to do this!
*********************
Post by Ron Rogers
Is it
silnylon?
*******************
The silicone coating suggests it is. MSR could tell you for sure.
**********************
Post by Ron Rogers
Does the stickiness indicate a degradation which will
eventually result in water-proofing failure in the field, or should
I not worry about it?
****************
I wouldn't keep doing this, the temporary stickiness doesn't sound
like it's good for your tent, but it's probably O.K. if no part of
the waterproofing coat has obviously transferred from one place to
another. Don't be shy about contacting MSR and learning what they
have to say about it.
Best, Don L.
Jerry Goller
2008-03-30 18:57:36 UTC
Permalink
When you put your tent away don't store it rolled up in it's stuff sack. Get
a large plastic coat hanger and hang it up. I just pull the tent through
the hanger, then the fly. I use a small biner (fake) to clip the pole bag
with poles and the stuff sack to the hanger. I also store my bags that way.
For that matter, I mounted a couple of 2x4, (4" side to ceiling) on my gear
room ceiling and ran a piece of 1/2" EMT (thin walled electrical conduit)
between them. I got some wire plant hanging hooks from Wally World and hang
my packs from that.

In the past when I didn't have a closet to hang the tents and bags in I used
the same technique for them, as well. You can also hang them with electrical
wire from screw in eye bolts so you can set the height at anything you want.


BTW, the sticky is probably the beginning of the end.

Jerry


http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear
reviews and tests on the planet.

-----Original Message-----
From: BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ron Rogers
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:42 AM
To: BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [BackpackingLight] Sticky Fly Anyone?

The other weekend, I used my 3 year old MSR Hubba Hubba tent for the first
time in 6-9 months. It had been kept neatly folded and rolled in its stuff
sack, stored in my house in a room that gets rather warm in the summer.
When I opened up the fly to set the tent up, I discovered that the coated
side was fairly sticky, such that the folded together, coated side was
sticking to itself and had to be actively pulled apart.

The fly is made of "30D ripstop nylon, 1500 mm PU/silicone coating".

Is this a normal occurrence with this type of material? Is it silnylon?
Does the stickiness indicate a degradation which will eventually result in
water-proofing failure in the field, or should I not worry about it?

Before I contact MSR I wanted to get some practical insight and advice.

Thanks. Ron


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Greg
2008-03-30 22:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ron,

I never store any of my gear in their stuff sacks. IMO stuff sacks are
for backpacking trips only.

There's too much that can go wrong when using the stuff sacks for
storage. The biggest problem is if there is any moisture in the
fabric, it has nowhere to go. Another problem may come out of all
those creases in the fabric being held so tight for so long.

So after making sure the gear is dry, I hang my tents and sleeping
bags. Ideally in a room or closet that gets some daylight. Let those
tents and sleeping bags hang out and breathe when you're not hiking
with them!

Greg

PS I would call MSR and see what they have to say. I'd be interested
to hear their response.
Post by Ron Rogers
The other weekend, I used my 3 year old MSR Hubba Hubba tent for the
first time in 6-9 months. It had been kept neatly folded and rolled
in its stuff sack, stored in my house in a room that gets rather warm
in the summer. When I opened up the fly to set the tent up, I
discovered that the coated side was fairly sticky, such that the
folded together, coated side was sticking to itself and had to be
actively pulled apart.
The fly is made of "30D ripstop nylon, 1500 mm PU/silicone coating".
Is this a normal occurrence with this type of material? Is it
silnylon? Does the stickiness indicate a degradation which will
eventually result in water-proofing failure in the field, or should I
not worry about it?
Before I contact MSR I wanted to get some practical insight and advice.
Thanks. Ron
Patrick Stoneking
2008-04-01 02:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Never encountered this issue, nor any issue with
storing dry tents in their stuff sacks. I store my
North Face, Mountain Hardware, and Walrus tents in
their stuff sacks all the time. And none of these
tents is less than 15 years old. I have never had a
problem storing them this way. then again, I take
extraordinary care of these tents. Until 5 years ago
when I had my first child, I spent at least 3 nights
(and usually more) a week in a tent, in all seasons,
for well over 20 years. These tents have never had an
issue with how they were stuffed. One tip, however,
never fold a tent. Stuff it. You typically fold
something over and over along the same lines which can
cause damage to the fabric and water repellent
treatment. It will also tent to tear along these
creases.

Sleeping bags are different. Always store them loose.
Never in stuff sacks. I tent to use over-sized
laundry bags to store my sleeping bags, over-sized
enough that the bags get a chance to loft.

Patrick Stoneking





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Patrick Stoneking
2008-04-01 02:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Never encountered this issue, nor any issue with
storing dry tents in their stuff sacks. I store my
North Face, Mountain Hardware, and Walrus tents in
their stuff sacks all the time. And none of these
tents is less than 15 years old. I have never had a
problem storing them this way. then again, I take
extraordinary care of these tents. Until 5 years ago
when I had my first child, I spent at least 3 nights
(and usually more) a week in a tent, in all seasons,
for well over 20 years. These tents have never had an
issue with how they were stuffed. One tip, however,
never fold a tent. Stuff it. You typically fold
something over and over along the same lines which can
cause damage to the fabric and water repellent
treatment. It will also tent to tear along these
creases.

Sleeping bags are different. Always store them loose.
Never in stuff sacks. I tent to use over-sized
laundry bags to store my sleeping bags, over-sized
enough that the bags get a chance to loft.

Patrick Stoneking





____________________________________________________________________________________
Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now
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Patrick Stoneking
2008-04-01 02:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Never encountered this issue, nor any issue with
storing dry tents in their stuff sacks. I store my
North Face, Mountain Hardware, and Walrus tents in
their stuff sacks all the time. And none of these
tents is less than 15 years old. I have never had a
problem storing them this way. then again, I take
extraordinary care of these tents. Until 5 years ago
when I had my first child, I spent at least 3 nights
(and usually more) a week in a tent, in all seasons,
for well over 20 years. These tents have never had an
issue with how they were stuffed. One tip, however,
never fold a tent. Stuff it. You typically fold
something over and over along the same lines which can
cause damage to the fabric and water repellent
treatment. It will also tent to tear along these
creases.

Sleeping bags are different. Always store them loose.
Never in stuff sacks. I tent to use over-sized
laundry bags to store my sleeping bags, over-sized
enough that the bags get a chance to loft.

Patrick Stoneking





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You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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William Comer
2008-04-01 04:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Actually MSR is back to telling folks to fold and roll tents as it is almost
impossible to fold on the same line each time and stuffing is harder on the
coating of the fabrics.
Post by Patrick Stoneking
One tip, however,
never fold a tent. Stuff it. You typically fold
something over and over along the same lines which can
cause damage to the fabric and water repellent
treatment. It will also tent to tear along these
creases.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kirk Wasson
2008-04-01 10:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Ron, I always just stuff my tent in the bag a different way each time. I
always hang it up for a couple of days then stuff in the bag without rolling
it up neatly. This way the folds are in deferent places each time. Never
had that problem in 30 years of backpacking. MSR will make good on it
though. Good luck, Kirk


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ralph Oborn
2008-04-01 13:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Hey folks, while the tent discussion is interesting and useful, the initial
question was about a silnylon fly.

Which is coated and often wet. it makes stickiness much more likely.


Ralph
Post by Kirk Wasson
Ron, I always just stuff my tent in the bag a different way each time. I
always hang it up for a couple of days then stuff in the bag without rolling
it up neatly. This way the folds are in deferent places each time. Never
had that problem in 30 years of backpacking. MSR will make good on it
though. Good luck, Kirk
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Jerry Goller
2008-04-01 19:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Actually, it's been my experience that the polyurethane coating on most
nylon or polyester flys is much more likely to delaminate (the eventual end
result of the stickiness) than silnylon. Silnylon isn't a coating, it's
impregnated in the fabric.

Jerry


http://www.BackpackGearTest.org : the most comprehensive interactive gear
reviews and tests on the planet.

-----Original Message-----
From: BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org
[mailto:BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Oborn
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:29 AM
To: BackpackingLight-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: Sticky Fly Anyone?

Hey folks, while the tent discussion is interesting and useful, the initial
question was about a silnylon fly.

Which is coated and often wet. it makes stickiness much more likely.


Ralph
Post by Kirk Wasson
Ron, I always just stuff my tent in the bag a different way each time.
I always hang it up for a couple of days then stuff in the bag without
rolling it up neatly. This way the folds are in deferent places each
time. Never had that problem in 30 years of backpacking. MSR will
make good on it though. Good luck, Kirk
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Anthea Michaelis
2008-04-01 19:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Many years ago I had a Stevensons Tent and the same problem occurred.
I phoned Stevenson and they recommend you clean down the tent with
some of other solution and I'm afraid I can't remember what it was.
Apparently it is an awful job but does fix the problem. I not sure if
they were even sylnylon tents but if nothing else is working so far
you might want to give them a call. My son has the tent now an it is
still going strong sticky and all.
Anthea
Kirk Wasson
2008-04-02 22:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Ralph, good point. I have never known silnylon to get sticky. Now the old
coated nylon would get sticky if packed away wet or just with age. That
silnylon is slick, hard to sew and sleep on. Hope everyone can get out in
the wilderness. Thanks, Kirk


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